Sounds good !   (Mon Feb 8 21:07 2010)

It turns out the lot number on the Crapdil I just picked up was the same as yours, so it looks like I don't have to worry about a bad batch for now...

Anyway the compounding should be done tomorrow and then I'll finally try moving up to 60mg and stay with it. The doctor authorized 3 refills already so running out again won't be a problem for quite a while.

   (Mon Feb 8 18:30 2010)

Hey man , Whats going on . You sick from the nardil or flu ? It's going around. Hang in there and let us know what happened.
Maybe someone will have an answer for you .
Take care   (Mon Feb 8 17:15 2010)

I am so sick, i have no idea what to do>: Maybe
you do   (Mon Feb 8 11:27 2010)

For one thing, most people's stomach acid is quite a bit more acidic than vinegar. Vinegar has a pH of about 3 while stomach acid I think is usually somewhere between 1 and 2. Also you're not taking into account the presence of all the different enzymes in the stomach aside from just the acidity.

Also, chewing the regular Nardil will NOT help at all.. if anything it may only make things a bit worse. It's not the crushing the Nardil in itself that makes it more effective, but the addition and binding of the two extra excipients Methocel and Avicel which allow the Nardil to be absorbed more slowly and pass the blood-brain barrier.

   (Sun Feb 7 1:01 2010)

meant to quote:

< Of course, lets thanks Dr.Undies for his tenacity to be the frist to do this. >

   (Sun Feb 7 0:50 2010)

>

Indeed. Thank you Dr Undies. :)

   (Sun Feb 7 0:49 2010)

After wiping off the nasty orange color,
I placed one pill in a small jar of water.
And,another into a n equal amount of vinagar.
They both lasted 20 minutes without breaking down.It's been 1.5 hrs. now and they are both
reduced in size by about the same amount.
What does this mean? It doesn't desolve in the stomach as we thought.If it takes 20 mins. in the stomach intact,then another hr.
to get to a fourth in size.Where is it?
And why doesn't it work like the old stuff.It lose's size all along the tract.
Also,maybe it's taken too long to desolve.
The crushed nardil in the capsuls seems to work. Maybe we should be chewing them up,
so they desolve faster??not to a power,but in little chunks??it would break down under an hr. but then again do we want it to go longet than an hr??? Remember the crushed
works.   (Sat Feb 6 23:31 2010)

Hi Guys, Good to know your still out there Mary, how is your brother doing ? Is he totally off Nardil, I know he was trying to quit, If I remember correctly.
Double It's been at least over a yr. since
I;ve heard of any bad batches.You'll know
when it's bad, It's like weening off it in
cold turkey fashion. It happened to me twice
that was yrs. ago. I guess all the complaints
paid off some what.I really happy that this is working for you.It could be the fix we
were all waiting for. Of course, lets thanks Dr.Undies for his tenacity to be the frist to do this. cheers for down under.   (Sat Feb 6 23:08 2010)

I wondered whether the smell was related to the recent tylenol recall that I think were moldy ...extra strength and arthritis formulas and they were made outside the states, like most crap Big Pharma makes these days.   (Fri Feb 5 22:19 2010)

EDIT: Besides redskin_dan's recent post, of course... I did see that.

   (Fri Feb 5 21:55 2010)

Also, has anyone here ever received a bad batch before? If so what was your experience?

   (Fri Feb 5 21:52 2010)

Thanks, Joe. If anyone else in the USA has a different lot # please let me know ASAP and how it's working for you!!

Yes, my social ability and energy have already improved a great deal and so has my general anxiety. There are too many specifics for me to list here right now but believe me it's working. Not quite as good as the old Nardil yet, however I'm still on 45mg until I pick up the new RX so that's to be expected. Even when I was on the old Nardil I still had to take either 60 or 75 mg as my maintenance dose, and from what I understand that's the case with most other people who take Nardil as well. So most likely this is just the tip of the iceberg! :)

   (Fri Feb 5 21:50 2010)

I have lot #9205001 seems to be fine -
Have you noticed any greater social ability
and energy as with the original nardil?
Can you find out if they are using enteric
capsuls? let me know , thanks Double.
Hey I like that word you coined "Crapdil"   (Fri Feb 5 21:21 2010)

Hey I'm set to go back to the pharmacy Monday and pick up a fresh new batch of Crapdil to take and be compounded. If you're in the USA please let me know the lot # of the batch you're currently taking and if it's working normally for you. Thanks!

   (Fri Feb 5 18:16 2010)

I believe the smelly stuff of "crap" Nardil works best.

Also, that FEDEX thing happened to many of us. They tell you to send your Nardil back, then they never respond, or they say it's OK.

Not surprising with Pfizer !
HelenK   (Fri Feb 5 14:59 2010)

we heard you the first time ;) j/k

   (Thu Feb 4 16:28 2010)

This was my first time I was referred to their Quality Control Department. I didn't really think I would get a response from them. I was suprised they gave me Fed X documents to send it back. I am wondering if the smelly Nardil is the good stuff or the bad stuff.

redskin_dan   (Thu Feb 4 15:42 2010)

This was my first time I was referred to their Quality Control Department. I didn't really think I would get a response from them. I was suprised they gave me Fed X documents to send it back. I am wondering if the smelly Nardil is the good stuff or the bad stuff.

redskin_dan   (Thu Feb 4 15:42 2010)

This was my first time I was referred to their Quality Control Department. I didn't really think I would get a response from them. I was suprised they gave me Fed X documents to send it back. I am wondering if the smelly Nardil is the good stuff or the bad stuff.

redskin_dan   (Thu Feb 4 15:42 2010)

Don't expect to hear back from Pfizer. They certainly won't admit failure.
I've been through this a few times myself.
They always say: We will check into it.

How many times have you been referred to the "Quality Control Group" ??
I'd like to call the Board of Directors (212-733-2323), but I doubt they care.

Also, Pfizer told me that the Manufacturing Plant was at
86, Rue de Paris
91400 Orsay, France.
They promised to send me a copy of the report but never did. So I called (and nagged them again!)
Now they say they can't release such information. I then asked for a synopsis.
No luck there either!

There is definitely a quality control problem, both with Pfizer and Nardil!

HelenK




   (Thu Feb 4 14:52 2010)

Here is my lastest Nardil story.My last script smelled putrid. I called Pfizer and they sent me a shipping Package. It was shipped back to Ambrose France and received on January 6th. I have called Pfizer with my complaint number and as of this writing they haave not called me back or notified me of their findings. Funny thing is my new script doesn't smell at all but after 4 weeks I don't feel as well as I did with the Putrid Nardil. I take 60 mg a day with 5mg of Abilify. I think there really is a Quality control problem! I will keep trying to get feedback from pfizer and post when I do.

redskin_dan    (Thu Feb 4 11:09 2010)

I'm not sure the Aus neonardil is really better than the US version in and of itself, as I think they're both based off of the crappy Pfizer formulation anyway. The problem with the US version, though, is the risk you take of getting a "bad batch" which is completely ineffective - even for the people who usually respond to neonardil. It probably has something to do with the inferior mixing equipment that is used to manufacture the US Nardil back in France which messes up every now and then, as opposed to Australian Nardil which is manufactured in some other country (I'm not sure which one).

It's this potential for a bad batch more than anything else that worries me right now, even taking the compounded stuff. Because in my case getting stuck with a bad batch ends up being even more costly! I have heard that one way to avoid getting stuck with a bad batch is to open up the bottle and smell the pills right when they give it to you at the pharmacy, and supposedly if it's a bad batch it will smell much worse than normal. (maybe some of you other people in the US have had experience with this?? I haven't)

Anyway how have the compounded pills been working for you so far now?

   (Thu Feb 4 2:57 2010)

I found out earlier today that yes, they were using neo-nardil tablets in the compounded formula. It's been working for me so far though so I can't really complain.. in fact I plan to keep doing it (at least for now) just so I can buy the crap Nardil separately because that's the only way I can get the insurance to cover part of it. Just HOW much they'll cover if anything in my case remains to be seen, but I figured it would be worth a try.

Anyways remember that one day I took 60 mg and decided to bring it back down to 45 because of some side effects? Well I kept it at 45 until one week after that I tried 60 again, but just for one more day. I'm happy to report that that time I did not notice any side effects from the increase. Most likely I just didn't give my body enough time to adjust to 45 and once I did it was alright. Since that one day up until now however I've stayed at 45 again.. not because of side effects or anything like that but because I realized that I wouldn't be seeing the doctor again for the next RX till this coming Friday and I needed to stay at 45 just to keep from running out of pills! :)

However once I get my RX refilled this time I will finally be able to go back up to 60 again and this time stay with it, which I'm really looking forward to. The good news is, believe it or not, I'm still making a steady improvement day by day even right now just staying at 45. It's amazing all the little details that I notice gradually, the subtle changes in my mood and behavior.. this is definitely some powerful stuff! When I consider that I'm only at HALF the max dosage of this stuff right now, plus the fact that it's already had such a noticeable effect on me I have little doubt in my mind that this will turn out to work like the old Nardil after all.

   (Thu Feb 4 2:35 2010)

Dr Parry has commented on the story that the Advertiser ran:




Thankyou for publishing this story on our paper, however II think I should just qualify the quote Mr Kemp has used from a longish phone interview with me the other night. The documents Glen Spielmans and I looked at give the strong overall impression that what is fed to us in the medical profession as science about pharmaceutical drugs has systemic flaws - much, even the majority of what we read may be "spun" to favour the newer on-patent medications by promoting data on efficacy and downplaying or concealing data on side-effects or lack of efficacy. That doesn't mean it is "all spun" (much of it may be) or that a journal publishing a drug trial or a prof giving a dinner talk is aware that the data may be manipulated. It is the release from court cases of now publically available documents from the industry that sheds light on how widespread the problem appears to be. Our paper is in the journal "Bioethical Inquiry" and should be read in full to give greater context. Whilst our paper breaks some new ground, it is only one of numerous published papers on the problems of the pharmaceutical industry and medical profession relationship including by very prominent doctors such as the former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine, Marcia Angell, and the British Medical Journal, Richard Smith. Comments on a blog (pharmalot.com) discussing our paper from pharma industry insiders were supportive of our conclusions. The problem is starting to be tackled by medical bodies and journals around the world, for example tomorrow's publication of a new policy on medical-pharma relationships by the Indian Medical Council deserves wide coverage.
Posted by: Dr Peter Parry of Adelaide 9:34am today    (Sat Jan 30 1:08 2010)

Hi Joe

Here's Dr Parry's email address. he works at Flinders University where I received my undergraduate degree.

peter.parry@flinders.edu.au

Not sure what if anything he would do with the info on this site...but the more people like him who know about this the better.

Cheers
Andy   (Sat Jan 30 0:27 2010)

How do we get in touch with this guy ?
We need to let them read this site from the start. The FDA and the drug companies sleep in the same bed as far as I can tell .
Med Watch is another joke.   (Fri Jan 29 20:55 2010)

An article from my local rag.. Drug companies wouldn't do anything corrupt would they???


'Corrupt' drug firm practices exposed

Article from: The Advertiser

MILES KEMP

January 30, 2010 12:01am

A FLINDERS University study has exposed "corrupt" drug company marketing practices including covering up adverse side effects and pushing patients on to new, more expensive drugs even when they are less effective.

Psychiatrist Peter Parry and American colleague Glen Spielmans studied 400 internal emails and research documents unearthed mainly through court cases.

"Drug marketing is a very sophisticated system which corrupts every part of the scientific and medical network," Dr Parry said.

Dr Parry said one disturbing finding was that, regardless of the health benefits, drug companies were pushing patients towards their own patented drugs because they could make bigger profits. Such products were called "blockbuster drugs" in the industry because they could make more than $1 billion in profits.

The documents, sourced from US and European companies which also market and sell their products in Australia, indicate:

INSTRUCTIONS to sales representatives not to mention weight gain side effects of the drug Zyprexa.

HIDING the weight-gain side effects of anti-psychotic drug Seroquel.

EXAGGERATING the benefits of Seroquel over an existing medication.

DISTORTION of research trials by excluding the results of some patients, not publishing the findings or making up statistical reasons to exclude some "bad apple" results.

GHOST writing of medical journal articles by marketers with the names of doctors used as "honorary" authors.

All of the drug companies involved rejected the conclusions of the study, published in the journal Bioethical Inquiry, arguing the documents on which it is based are taken out of context as evidence in court cases.

Dr Parry said while he supported the use of drugs in psychiatry, all results of research should be made available to prescribing doctors.
   (Fri Jan 29 20:28 2010)

I'm having a great response to just dividing up the 45mg dose into 3 X 15mg per day... every 6-8 hours...depending on when I remember to take it. When I commenced taking them 3 times per day, I was able to notice a difference within a couple of days.

My response as far as beneficial effects was minimal. Mainly a smoother onset of the drug...rather than the sledgehammer whammy from the 45mg at once. BUT...the biggest improvement came in a reduction of side-effects. My biggest problem with Nardil (including the original formulation) has been delayed ejaculation. Insomnia has been an increasingly bothersome issue lately too. But by taking one 15mg tablet 3 times per day... those two effects diminished considerably. I'm hoping that with time.. they will cease to be an issue at all.

This has prompted me to bite the bullet financially and buy a batch of compounded Nardil from Lewis.. my Compounding Pharmacist who sent the formula to Double.

To answer one of your earlier questions Double.. I've opened up a capsule to see what the stuff looks like..and sure enough..there are those little tell-tale specks of red/orange (I'm colour blind so not sure hehe) in the mix... That is what you said that you could see in your capsules...so it would seem that your capsule were made by crushing Nardil tablets too.

These Australian Nardil tablets are supposedly marginally better than the crap that you guys in the USA receive from France. So I guess a direct comparison cannot be made regarding the efficacy of the compounded stuff.

I have only just recommenced on the compound.. and it's too early to report how it is affecting me. I just wanted to share this news with any of you who are still wondering whether it is worth all the hassle of getting the compounded Nardil. My answer in a word: YES!

cheers
Andy   (Fri Jan 29 19:13 2010)

Thanks for the information.
Sounds like you're right on top of this.
HelenK.   (Tue Jan 26 14:19 2010)

I forgot to mention that I DO plan on finding out once and for all whether or not they used crap Nardil tablets in this compounding.. I'm just waiting until the next time I have to go to the pharmacy and I haven't had to do that yet. It will be fairly soon though, and when I find out I'll let you all know.

   (Mon Jan 25 19:00 2010)

Well, I'm really not sure if they used crap Nardil in the compounding yet.. I just had a sneaking suspicion since they gave me the pills that that's what they ended up doing. The written instructions I gave them did state to use "crushed Nardil tablets" so there's a good chance they just did that to be "safe" and follow everything to the letter. I did mention to them before that I would prefer they used pure Phenelzine, but when I did that it was a counterperson that I talked to there at the pharmacy and not the actual pharmacist himself.

Part of me thinks it might actually be better this way for now. For two reasons:

1) If it turns out that this compounded formula works with crap Nardil, then at least it will be easier for people to get their hands on that rather than buying pure Phenelzine Sulphate first.

2) This at least gets the "worst case scenario" out of the way and if anything now we can be pretty sure that the formula would work just as well (if not better) if we did choose to use pure Phenelzine.

Also, since most insurance plans don't seem to cover compounded medications it may save some of us money to get the crap Nardil through insurance first, and then take it to the pharmacy to be compounded.. that way you would only have to pay for the compounding process, and not the Nardil itself.

   (Mon Jan 25 18:54 2010)

Congrats! I'm following your progress very
closely.
You did say you had your pharmacy make this compound from crushed up crap Nardil, then added a slow-release formula (?)
Therefore, you are getting phenelzine plus all the excipients from crap Nardil, plus
the slow-release.
Hopefully we can all find relief this way!
   (Mon Jan 25 14:47 2010)

Woo Hoo Double..I'm very happy for you. Hopefully you will continue to experience the positive effects of the slow-release stuff. I agree with you that caution should be used when increasing the dosage of this reformulated drug. As we are all more than aware, the excipients added to the active drug are as important to the therapeutic effect obtained. You are now using a very unusual combination of active drug mixed with agents to slow down its absorption..and you need to familiarise yourself with the way this combination affects you individually. The fact that Joe and others experience wildly fluctuating effects from the same dose of the new Nardil, suggests that an individual's response to the drug is more important than reading reams of information about how it's supposed to work! I would hazard a guess and say that genetic factors are at work to cause the different ways our bodies absorb and metabolise the neo-Nardil formulation and give people fluctuating results. For a very good (may be a bit too technical for non-medical backgrounds) description of the way Phenelzine works...see this link: http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Phenelzine.


Joe: Ahh yes The Little River Band... well they were very middle of the road act, and a couple of the members including the singer came from this city where I live (Adelaide) AC/DC a very hard rock act that has managed to bleed three chords (not mention a lot of eardrums) for nearly 40 years hehe.

Thanks for supporting our dwindling manufacturing base Joe. Although...like the rest of the developed world...we get the bulk of our products from the developing nations and I believe that China has become our major trading partner. We were a country in the 50's that rode on the sheep's back. Now we exploit our mineral wealth and particularly uranium. Unfortunately, we'll export this uranium to other countries and one day they may send it back to us in the form of a big firecracker. Such is the capitalist way of doing business :o)

Keep smiling guys!
Andy   (Mon Jan 25 1:59 2010)

Thanks for the update Double , sounds promising.If it's gonna act like the old stuff 60mg will probably be your max amt.
So stay on 45 a bit longer, before jumping the gun. WHen you start singing you know your there.
Dr.Undies thanks for the knowledge you share
on the way this stuff works.I remember reading something about the Phenelzine test
we may have read the same book.The guys were
laughing and joking around,but they still
died? Now thats the way to go. But, this sleepyness kind of grows on ya.When you have to work it's not good either.But it is what it is.I used to be a pretty good player on the guitar, now I can't remember half the songs.Also, when doing the 12 nardils ,I would get dizzy at times.I fell broke the left thumb,had to have surgery on my hand
so it kinda hurts when I play too long.
Thats cool that your a drummer and play a strat too. You forgot the"little river band" and ac/dc. I want you to know I support
your economy down there.I have 3 mine lab
metal detectors from there.You guys make good quality equipment.
Cheers
Joe
   (Sun Jan 24 16:25 2010)

So I upped the dose from 45 to 60 mg this past Thursday and WOW.. I really don't know where to begin but this stuff is definitely starting to work like the old Nardil now. I noticed it just a couple of hours after taking my dose on Thursday, as that night I was at my friend's house and it gave me a really good opportunity to gauge the increased efficacy for social interaction. It's been pretty much the same since then although these days I have very limited opportunities to go out and talk to people so I'll just have to wait for more conclusive results with that. But in every other way it's definitely the same feeling I got on the old Nardil, which is amazing. After 6 years I had forgotten just how good it felt! It remains to be seen, however, whether this sudden "kick" recently was the result of my upping the dose to 60mg earlier that day, or if it just would have happened anyway after remaining at 45mg for as long as I had been.. so today I went back down to 45mg and I'm going to stay like that for a few more days to see how it goes. Also, that same day I upped it to 60 I also started getting a numb feeling mostly in my feet and arms, and some mild transient headaches. This is the other reason I want to keep it at 45 for a little while longer as I may have been increasing the dose a little TOO fast.. All in all though this stuff works great!

Oh BTW I'm taking only a single dose every afternoon. I don't even bother spacing them out.

   (Sat Jan 23 22:59 2010)

Yeah, don't worry guys I'm still here.

Joe: no, I don't play the guitar.. I never really gave it a try. Also, that "strat guitar" site that is linked to above seems to have been down for some time and I guess it's gone for good, which is unfortunate as there was some good info on that site. Previously I thought it was Spotcheck who started that site but I guess I was mistaken.

   (Sat Jan 23 22:46 2010)

hahaha U could be arrested for possession of an unlicensed cup. I think u play geetar. I used to play drums in bands up until about 10 years ago, and I own a 1991 USA Strat... but just to mess around with. Some Aussie bands u may have heard of...

Midnight Oil------lead singer is now the Federal minister for the environment.

INXS.... lead singer was found hanging around in a hotel room.

Crowded House... drummer was found hanging around in a park.

The Divinyls....sexy singer

Savage Garden...less said the better.

You are having a raw deal with this new crapdil. The only thing that may help you is to try the compounded slower-release capsules. Haven't heard from Double for a while...that's usually a good sign when peeps get better they're less inclined to tune into the forum. It sounds like he was getting a positive response to the formula.



There's an important point to consider with Nardil (any drug really) and that's the time it takes to reach Peak Plasma Concentration. That is: time taken to reach the maximum level of active drug circulating in the bloodstream. The old Nardil took around 4 hours...the crap stuff takes only 45 minutes. This is related to 2 things:

1: The rate at which the drug gets absorbed into the blood stream...

2: The rate at which the liver metabolises the active drug on the first pass through the liver via the Portal Vein from digestive tract to Liver. To a lesser extent the second pass via the general blood circulation.

The liver does its job of detoxifying nasty chemicals that enter our body or are the product of cellular breakdown. Guess how it does this? The Liver is rich in Monoamine Oxidase. The enzyme responsible for catabolism of neurotransmitters implicated in depression. Hence Phenelzine also inhibits Liver enzymes... causing a slower breakdown of Phenelzine itself.

Off-hand I think that a clinical therapeutic dose of Phenelzine gives about a 20% inhibition of MAOs. Somebody may be able to correct me on that figure.

So to answer your question regarding the the new max of up to 12 pills tapering down to 8 with no positive effect... Maybe your Liver metabolises Phenelzine too rapidly because it's entering the Liver too quickly via that Portal Vein... hence you don't get enough active drug reaching the brain box. I'm only guessing here of course!

Another bit of useless trivia: Phenelzine's ability to help depressive symptoms was discovered by accident. In the 50's scientists were looking for better drugs to fight Tuberculosis (Tb). Phenelzine was tried...it had no effect on Tb... but they did notice that the Tb patients were literally dancing in the aisles.

It begs the question... that had Pigsda been making the drug back then... whether the Tb people would have danced or just dropped dead... hehehe

Hang in there Joe... we're all shipmates in this leaky boat...and it seems to be a slow one going TO China!!

Cheers
Andy   (Sat Jan 23 22:19 2010)

Well there you have it- I knew that base ball
thing was too easy. "Hey Joe" - good music.
Now it's : Hey Joe..where u going with that
cup in your hand... I'm going down..down to the coffee pot...I'm gonna fill it up and drink it..Cuse this crapp nardil will make u tired ... ( remake ) yea or naa
You have some good groups from down under.
Sorry I got carried away .Thanks for the
technical point of view.I took up to twelve pills for ~ week .And weened down to eight
which was the best number for me.It was like the new max, after that peak, it slopes back down,with max sick side effects.I absolutely
had not even a tinge of any kinf of old nardil effect.What do you make of that?I feel
some phenelzine should have gotten me a response like old nardil.I do feel Pfizer
changed the nardil manufacturer,probably
cheap stuff from china,now.I too took 45 mg
of the old nardil,but ea. morning.Twelve
pills of the old stuff- i would have blown-up, or went into spontanious combustion.
Damm I miss that feeling - like you all say
- It's Great to be alive!
keep well my friend
Joe   (Sat Jan 23 2:29 2010)

Hey Joe.. where u going with that gun in your hand? (oops Old Hendrix song sorry)

That's a nice story and would explain the actions of many drugs that act on receptors in the brain or elsewhere in the body. However, Phenelzine is a MOA inhibitor and does NOT act on any receptors. The enzyme inhibition is occurring inside the synapse... which is the tiny gap between nerve cells. This is the place where aminergic neurotransmitters such as..Serotonin..Dopamine and Noradrenaline cross the gap from one cell to the next and cause an influx of sodium and potassium ions that then causes the neuron to evoke an electrical signal that is carried down the nerve to set off the same string of events.

While it is true that the neurotranmsitters may be acting on receptor sites on the post-synaptic cell.. the actual monoamine oxidase inhibition is independent of any receptors. Thus the concentration of transmitters in the synapse is increased due to the slower breakdown by the reduced concentration of enzymes.

I think that the baseball catcher analogy also breaks down with Nardil..becuase how do you explain the increasing level of effects with increasing dosage of the drug? If the baseball catcher story was occurring..then you would expect to see less and less drug effect at higher doses..which is NOT the case!

Without being blinded by all the science of neurotransmission... I can say that is that taking the original Nardil at night as one 45 mg dose... always worked the best for me after many attempts of fine tuning. I had been doing that for so long that it didn't even occur to me to experiment with splitting up the dosage again.

Cheers
Andy   (Fri Jan 22 16:11 2010)

Breaking up the doses seems to be a smarter thing to do than taking them all at once like i sometimes do - and a few pharmacist
told me a story.The pills desolve too quickly,and you have a large inrush of PZ
hitting the receptors but only a few receptors lockup with the PZ.Consider 5 baseball catchers with 100 balls thrown at them simultaneously only 5 balls get caught.
95% goes down the drain,decays. Therefore,taking less at a time,there's less waste.And as the first one decays,a new one
comes in and hits new receptors and so forth.This keeps the pz in the blood aT a more constant level.Does this make any sense?Anyway after a week of heavy rain,mud,hail,and snow.And being stuck inside - I have cabin fever ,I need to get outside for awhile before I go loony.Forgive me if this makes nonesence,I think this crap nardil is destroying my brain.Take care all and to my friends down under cheers : )   (Fri Jan 22 13:24 2010)

Hi !
Just want to comiserate with you about Nardil withdrawal. I thought I suffered the worst of anyone here.
I could literally slit my throat trying to get off this stuff! I tried to wean off very very slowly, but it just prolongs the agony in my case.
I don't understand how people can swing off and on Nardil with ease.
I think somehow my natural neurotransmitters are spent, and don't recoup for some reason.
Can anyone add to this?
(I now take 90mg of crap Nardil)
Helen K.
   (Thu Jan 21 16:47 2010)

I have to agree with you Sandy... remembering to take the Nardil at the correct time is a skill that I'm slowly learning to master hehe.

I've been on the 45mg per day maintenance dose of Nardil since I commenced it back in 1991. (I did have a flirtation with Nardil in the late 70's ..but was able to manage for a long time without any medication
My diagnosis is bipolar II, and any attempt to increase the original Nardil would send me into hypo-mania. This crap that we have now just makes any side-effects worse... with little benefit.... if I try to increase the dosage.

I believe that this positive effect from splitting up the dosage regimen is "real" too. I've been on this drug way too long now to not understand how it affects me either physically or emotionally.

Thank you for your input and let's see if we can continue our good response.

Cheers
Andy

   (Thu Jan 21 11:24 2010)

Have a couple of points for you.

When dealing with a POWERFUL drug such as Phenelzine.. 15mg per week is nothing and I am not surprised that you were experiencing severe withdrawal symptoms. Decades of lies from drug manufacturers about the addictiveness or dependence of anti-depressants have left most users wondering why they have these withdrawals at all! To add insult to injury..the drug companies in their never-ending quest to lie and misinform...have now come up with a euphemism for these drug withdrawals that would make the military proud. They now call them "Discontinuation Syndrome"

So...I have to ask you the obvious question... WHY do you want to get off Nardil? Usually people who are on Nardil are on it because nothing else has worked!

I can understand your desire to get off Nardil though... since it has been made practically useless for a lot of people. There are still others who have no problems with the reformulation as far as I'm aware.

So if you are serious about weaning off the Nardil, you will need to look at weaning off it very very slowly over a very very long time, and it will STILL be very unpleasant!

You haven't mentioned the maintenance dose that you take, but it would have to be at least 45mg per day .. as I don't think that anything less than that would be effective to give adequate MAO inhibition in anyone regardless of weight or metabolism.

Think 1/4 of a tab reduction per month as a minimum (approx 4mg per month) Preferably reduce more slowly..... perhaps as little as 1/4 tablet per 3 months... to smooth out any nasty withdrawal effects!

At 6 months you will be down to 1/2 tablet for another 3 months.

At 9 months 3/4 tablet

At 12 months 1 tablet (15mg)

AT this rate it will take 3 years to get off Nardil..BUT I believe that it can be done.

Unfortunately...You are then faced with...What next?!

It would be a good idea for you to go back and read the comments in this forum. Go back a couple of years and you will see many people's experiences at trying to withdraw... and the reasons why they tried and the reasons why they failed and what they did next.

This forum has many intelligent and articulate people making posts and you should use their experience and wisdom to your advantage. Good luck!   (Thu Jan 21 11:12 2010)

In Canada there is a drug MFG Erfa that makes Nardil. If you go to Canadadrugs.com they sell it. I wish I could get it here in the US instead of the pfizer stuff.

redskin_dan   (Thu Jan 21 9:57 2010)

Wow! Im so surprised that you are taking your nardil like me, 15mg every 8 hours. Im so glad you are feeling somewhat better like me, as well. I hope others out their might try this, and get the same result.

I know exactly what you mean when you say, (When I remember), at work it is hard sometimes to knick off and take one. But yes, I have noticed as well that in the 6-8 hr range, their doesnt seem to be much difference with the effect,it is still good.

Are you contemplating, increasing your dose, or just waiting a bit longer like me, to see if it is placebo affect, or real?? I believe its real, Ive been doing this for a fortnight now, and havent had one day of the miseries.


By the way, thanks for sharing your story.
Take care, and bye for now

   (Thu Jan 21 4:40 2010)

Writing from Canada. Have been unable to get off Nardil because of severe withdrawal symptoms. Tried reducing by as little as 15 mg per week. Still went into severe and unremitting withdrawal. Took many weeks for symptoms to abate even after dosage was re-increased. Learned tonight (January 20, 2010)from my pharmacist that Parke-Davis has discontinued manufacture of Nardil. Was told it is not available from any other source. I have never seen or heard of it being supplied in capsule format and have never had a bad batch. Looking for leads re: new supplier.   (Thu Jan 21 2:48 2010)

Accepted..let's move on!   (Wed Jan 20 12:21 2010)

Hi Avalon..I'm in South Australia. Your story is amazing. You have experienced a lot of unnecessary suffering as a result of this so-called "ethical" drug company. I was also told that Nardil was going to be discontinued. Then finally it did go off market. During that brief period, I was able to obtain Nardil through the hospital, that imported it from the UK.

However, when I received that 1st batch of tablets...they looked and smelled different. Within a few days of taking them I started to feel very ill, depressed, suicidal and generally felt that I was going to die. I knew exactly why. The tablets were DIFFERENT and I was actually going through severe withdrawal symptoms. This was occurring even though I had not missed any doses nor had I reduced the dosage from 45mg per day, taken as one dose before going to bed at night. I immediately brought this fact to the attention of the psych do and he could not understand WHY I should be having this reaction..coz Nardil is Nardil right?>??

Naturally..neither he nor the pharmacies nor any patients received any information to the effect that Pigsda had reformulated Nardil. This was allegedly done under the guise, that they were having problems with "shelf-life" What a pile of horseshit!!! In the 12 years that I had been taking Nardil up to 2003, I had NEVER had a bad batch of Nardil. Now that it has been changed..all you hear about in the USA , is how constant the number of bad batches people are receiving. Yeah GREAT excuse Pigsda. I buy it!

All that is water under the big bridge of life now. and here we all are trying to make sense of something that only comes in dollars and CENTS. PROFIT$.

The good news to share with everyone on this forum...is that I have been dividing my 45mg does by taking 1 tablet roughly every 6-8 hours (when I remember) instead of the usual 3 tablets in one dose at night. I am surprised to say that this is actually having a positive effect for me. Side-effects seem to be less pronounced and I seem to have more energy and a better mood during the day. I'm also getting to sleep easier now and waking feeling refreshed. Whether or not this is some temporary 'placebo' effect is yet to be discovered with time. For now... it sure feels a lot better splitting the dose up into 3 separate ones rather than the single dose that used to work on the old Nardil.

Good luck to anyone who hasn't tried this avenue if you were taking your Nardil in a single dose.

Cheers
Andy   (Wed Jan 20 12:18 2010)

You are correct, I mistook whom I was emailing as Spot, God rest his soul. My deepest & sincerest apologies.
   (Wed Jan 20 8:54 2010)