Hello all,
Good to see some of the same people posting here as back a couple years ago when I was on Nardil (I'm on Parnate now); though not so good in that we seem to be grappling with the same awful good batch/bad batch pfizer sucks issues as before.
I'll give a brief overview of my nardil history and then want to ask a couple of questions as I'm thinking about returning to nardil. I'd really REALLY REALLY appreciate some solid advice.
So, after years on Parnate, I gave nardil a try a couple years back. In the beginning, it was a godsend - I experienced a somewhat brief period of life free of depression, feeling more "normal" and happier/content than I ever have before or since. That, of course, faded somewhat, but nardil was still doing a pretty good job of tackling my depression and leveling my anxiety.
Unfortunately, my weight just completely soared. I put on 30lbs+ in a short period, despite a fairly strenuous exercise routine.
Eventually, as the positive effects leveled out and the weight gain became unbearable, I returned to Parnate.
Parnate is great, but I don't exactly enjoy life on it. It exacerbates (or at least doesn't help) my anxiety and obsessiveness. Nardil opened me up to all the possibilities in this wonderful world; Parnate lets me function but on a very narrow level, just focused obsessively on one or two things in life.
So, I'm back to thinking very seriously about returning to Nardil. My questions:
1) Do people generally find the Oz refrigerated version of Nardil to be better than the USA domestic non-refrigerated type?
2) What's the story with Nardil weight gain? I felt like I was exercising a lot, eating reasonably well and still packing on serious weight? Has anyone else had that experience, or does the weight gain seem more directly tied to increased consumption of bad food?
3) What's my minimum washout period from dropping Parnate (I'm on 80mg/day) to starting Nardil? Are there any strategies to making the transition less hellish?
4) Are there any tried and true methods now for making the crappy new nardil less crappy? Many were experimenting with compounding and enteric coating the stuff last I recall. I just don't have the time (or brain) to delve seriously into experimentation or trying to sort through all the posts and figure out what worked best for who - can anyone recommend any successful methods for punching up this stuff?
It's good to be back on this board and to see that some of you are still fighting the good fight.
Thanks in advance for your advice!!!!
-T (Wed Mar 10 23:10 2010)
I recently puchased some Primadophilus Bifidus because they come in enteric coated capsules which can be opened. I thought that breaking the seal would spoil the enteric coating, but I've been crushing the Nardil pills and filling these enteric coated capsules with it. I've been taking Nardil this way for three days now and the results are amazing - No side effects. Will keep you posted. I really think that Nardil needs to be released into the intestine to be effective. (Wed Mar 10 13:43 2010)
Hi everybody...Finally back from Thailand.
It was therapeutic in itself to be riding a big bike around those treacherous narrow mountain roads... where Mount Inthanon rises 8,500 feet above sea-level.
Happy to report that I had no issues with medication on this trip. The divided dose regimen of 3 X 15 mg Tabs per day has been good for diminishing the side-effects that I have experienced since starting Nardil back in 1991.
The 45mg per day is really at the very bottom end of the dosage range. When I was on the original pre-2003 Nardil..I could increase the dosage by one or two tabs if I ever felt that depression was becoming an issue. However, with this crappy "new" Nardil...any increase in the dose usually gives minimal benefit and mainly increased side-effects. As a result of this... I don't bother taking more than 3 tabs per day even during the times that I feel that a temporary increase would be called for.
Another thing I would like to mention...it would seem that the single major reason that Nardil went out of favour with the medical profession was the incidence of dietary tyramine induced hypertensive crises. In the nearly 20 years of being on Nardil, I've managed to eat just about every food that is contra-indicated. To the point where I don't have to think.."will this food give me a bad reaction?"
Now this could just be my individual good luck coupled with the fact that I'm on the low 45mg dose per day. Many times I've checked my own blood pressure in addition to the doc's checks and it usually falls within the text book range of 120/80...slight variations excepted.
Does anyone else have the good luck to eat what they like? Or are most people on higher dosages and more sensitive to tyramine's effects on their blood pressure?
Cheers
Andy (Tue Mar 9 12:46 2010)
As soon as getting home with Nardil, it goes into the fridge. One thing, the pharmacy doesn't keep it refrigerated and the Pfizer bottle doesn't say to refrigerate. Joe, are you having problems with lot# 9205001? (Wed Mar 3 22:55 2010)
Good to see you're having a fun summer.
How is it in the jungle? Is there a cool place to store your nardil? Hope to hear some good stories of your trip when you
get back.
Take care
Joe
(Tue Mar 2 2:01 2010)
Hey Double
Hmmm obviously it is one of the excipients in Oz Nardil that needs the refrigeration then... I wonder what would happen to the USA \Nardil if it was stored in the fridge.
What's a little puzzling is that your Nardil has the dehumidifying agent silical gel...yet does not require refrigeration ...which can be a humid place. Oz Nardil is stored in the fridge but has no silica gel packet. Very bizarre!
I'm still wandering around here in the Golden Triangle region of Thailand.. Will be heading back to Bangkok on Thurs...for a few days then back to Oz on the Sunday.
I had a BIG problem on my last trip to Thailand 6 months ago... I took a week long side trip to the Philippines to catch up with some friends over there...and left my Nardil in my friends fridge in Bangkok.. You can't buy Nardil anywhere in Asia.. not Thailand or the Phils at least. So I went through the hell of withdrawal for the whole week in the Phils. I would have cancelled the trip if I had gone for any longer than 1 week... by the time I got back to Bangkok ..I was a gibbering mess of pain. hahaha
Rule one when travelling...NEVER EVER forget the Nardil!!
(Mon Mar 1 2:58 2010)
The Nardil in the US doesn't need to be refrigerated. At least, that's what we're told. It's not like the Australian Nardil in that way.. that's why I was rather skeptical about the storage temperature being the cause for bad batches here, unless somehow the pills were exposed to VERY extreme temperatures somewhere along the line for long periods of time. Also as far as I know the Canadian Nardil does not need to be refrigerated either, but I've never heard any reports of bad batches over there so far.
As for the smell of bad batches, I don't know yet myself. I was trying to get an answer on that several posts back but I didn't get any real conclusive replies.
BTW are you back in Australia yet?
(Sun Feb 28 23:01 2010)
G'day Joe
Just a couple of questions in regards to the bad batches you guys get. Does your Nardil need to be refrigerated? Do the bad batches have that bad smell about them?
Cheers
Andy (Sun Feb 28 22:38 2010)
How are you doing ? has it gotten any better with that new batch? Maybe you can return them and get a different batch number.
Take care, Joe (Wed Feb 24 11:06 2010)
In regards to your daytime sleepiness...have you considered altering the time that you take your dose of Nardil..or perhaps spreading the dose out over the whole day. Since I'm still on the crappy uncompounded stuff while traveling... I'm still doing surprisingly well just by taking the tablets 3 times per day. One 15mg tablet every 6-8 hours ( as per remembering) On a few occasions I've completely forgotten to take a tablet or even two... this result of this forgetfulness... is that I feel a bit crappy for while until I take the Nardil again. I will just take 2 or 3 tablets as a single dose and then go back to the regular regimen of 3 times per day.
The bottom line of all this is that...all of the troublesome side-effects have gone away now... including daytime sleepiness.
The only real problem is the crappy efficacy compared to the original Nardil. Once I return back home to Oz in early March...I'll commence on the compounded stuff and keep you posted on my progress. (Mon Feb 22 2:00 2010)
G'day Double... I'm still roaming around the north of Thailand, so my post will be infrequent. In regards to the old Warner-Lambert Nardil...as far as I can recall.. it did NOT need to be kept in the fridge. This new Link Nardil must be stored between 2 - 8C (36 - 47F) It states DO NOT FREEZE!
So with such a narrow window of temperature storage...any fluctuation above or below the stated range will more than likely affect the efficacy of the whole bottle of tablets. It would also seem that if the tablets freeze at any stage..then they are definitely gonners! A lot of things can happen on a voyage between the manufacturer in France to reach your Pharmacy in the USA.
(Mon Feb 22 1:47 2010)
Hey guys , we been throught this before. why
part of one batch is good and another part is
bad? The mix is such that due to unequal mixing part will have more phenelzine in it than the other thus pills from the "more" part are good and pills from the "less" part are bad. It's the only way it can be explained.With all other things being equal.
The only thing to do is document it with med watch. I know how mad you must feel Lutherbfree is whole thing still is not being addressed. maybe be through Doubles blog and other blogs like youtube or twitter
we can put this tragic story in.Letting the world know what the Pfizer trough feeders
have done . (Sun Feb 21 2:17 2010)
As a matter of fact, Joe and I are both currently taking lot number 9205001 as well! Though mine has been compounded and his has not. For me it seems to be working okay. I'm rather confused as to why it wouldn't be working for you? Maybe Dr Undies was really onto something with his refrigeration theory after all..?
(Fri Feb 19 21:40 2010)
As far as the blog.. right now I'm just using it as a repository for information that I come across to keep it all linked/stored in one place. I still have a lot more organizing and updates to do with it though. I don't have a forum like this one yet, but you still should be able to make comments on any of the posts already on there. Try it and see.
With the nardil I've finally run into an annoying side effect - it seems I'm getting a lot of daytime sleepiness now and going to bed early or sleeping more hours at night really doesn't help. On the bright side, the benefits continue to improve day by day and I'm still on 60mg right now. I did get the same daytime sleepiness with the old nardil too but it was so long ago I really can't remember if that side effect ever went away completely or not. :( FWIW there is an account written by somebody else that I linked to on my blog, which says that the daytime somnolence did go away for him/her eventually.
(Fri Feb 19 21:35 2010)
Yes double, it happens a few times a year with me. I have full Nardil withdrawals, with all my symptoms returning. I don't think it has anything to do with the fomula change during 05 other than being less effective while many needed a larger dose and for some the reformulation will not work. The crappy equipment used in France to make the stuff is the problem. The paddles are old equipment and Nardil is not being mixed properly. I'd like to be there to see it done, but this is the best answer I know of. (Fri Feb 19 17:01 2010)
Hey Joe what lot# do you have which is bad? Mine is 9205001. When first starting this lot on 2/12/10 stopped working within a day. (Fri Feb 19 16:48 2010)
Hello Joe
---------
Joe to survive without the old Nardil its not easy. Pfizer its a bad server.....why
they do that? Maybe just to make few cents
more.
Pfizer its MORTAL as us
_______________________
I hope a medicines maker will help us
______________________________________
Joe and all the people in this forum TAKE CARE........ Constantine did say: IN HOC SIGNE VNCENT
Regards
Luigi (Fri Feb 19 16:14 2010)
Hey man - what happened to you? (Tue Feb 16 13:46 2010)
Hey Double - thats pretty cool .
can people post on it like this one?
how does it work?
And have you got any more good news to report
about your experimental nardil?
Take care
Joe (Tue Feb 16 13:45 2010)
Hey guys check out my new blog at nardilhelp.blogspot.com Theres not much posted on there yet but I'm going to be adding a lot more whenever I get the chance.
(Mon Feb 15 21:10 2010)
Thanks for the info Joe. I was curious because when I used to take the new crappy Nardil up until sometime over a year ago, they never put those little canisters in there back then (not in my bottles anyway!).
(Mon Feb 15 21:07 2010)
The crystals in the canister are there to absorb any moisture in the bottle. If you live in a damp area -you really want this
in there.Helps prevent break down of the product. If they kept the same old formula
they wouldn't need this in there - the old ones were sealed. Remember this new formula is to prevent break down ( yea right) thats why they add this ,because they break down asap. Scr*w Pfizerpigies they are CockRoachs
of the pharma industry. (Mon Feb 15 21:00 2010)
BTW has anyone else here ever gotten a can of adsorbent included inside your bottle of nardil? My last two each had one in there.. I'm hoping it doesn't interfere with being able to detect the smell..?
(Sun Feb 14 23:16 2010)
In regards to your refrigeration theory, I have one important question: did the Australian version of OLD Nardil also have to be refrigerated?
(Fri Feb 12 1:08 2010)
I didn't have any spares, but fortunately the new RX was ready the day after I had to take just 30mg so I went up to 60mg right when I got them (yesterday) and took 60 earlier today also. Believe it or not I'm not getting any side effects right now! I'm sure you remember that first time I tried going up to 60 that I wrote about here, when I immediately got the numbness and transient headaches from the tyramine reaction but fortunately that isn't happening now at all. Most likely my body just needed more time to adjust to 45mg before moving up to 60. It seems that incrementing by 15mg every two weeks (rather than one week like I tried to do at first) is a safe enough way to go so that there's enough time to adjust.
It's a slow process but like I keep saying, it really does help with sociability and optimism a lot already.. and it actually seems just a tiny bit better with each passing day. But since I've only been at 60 for two days now and may even go up to 75 later on there's probably much more progress to be made so we'll just continue to see how it goes.
(Fri Feb 12 1:04 2010)
Good to hear that you're doing so well on the compounded Nardil. Hope that you have some spare tablets to carry you over any shortfall in capsules. It sounds like things are going from good to better for you. What side-effects if any are you experiencing now? Have they also become less of a problem over time? How is your sociability coming along? Do you feel happy to be around people again? Are you waking up with that refreshed sleep and great to be alive feeling? That is how the original Nardil used to affect me. The compounded capsules were also giving me a similar effect..however, I discontinued them 2 years ago due to the high cost for me.
When I get home to Australia at the end of this month ..I will recommence the capsules that I bought. Lewis suggested that I take the full 45mg as a single dose in the morning... but to also experiment with spacing the dose out over the day ... if that seems to give a better result.
I find that side-effects ..especially the sexual one...are less of a problem by taking the tablets 3 times per day ..rather than a single dose at night.
in relation to the bad batches of Nardil you guys get in the USA...I have a theory.
My Nardil HAS to be refrigerated at below 8C (47F) . On my frequent travels..there are times when my Nardil is exposed to room temperature for extended periods of time. I notice that the Nardil begins to lose effectiveness...and also loses the nice perfume smell...and begins to stink!
My guess is that your bad batches are not a manufacturing problem...but a transportation and distribution problem. The Nardil has probably been exposed to temperatures above 8C for too long before it arrived at your Pharmacy.
Anyway...that's my intuitive guess based on my personal experience...however, my supply of Nardil is sourced from a different location in Europe. In your case ..it may well be a manufacturing problem?? (Thu Feb 11 2:08 2010)
Good to hear from you Dr Undies!
My next batch of compounded pills was *supposed* to be ready today but they didn't call me like they said they would.. Hopefully it's ready tomorrow as I had to get by on just 30mg today, and those were my last 2 pills. :(
(Tue Feb 9 21:46 2010)
Double and myself have both had significant improvement in symptoms by using the formula supplied by my compounding Pharmacist. He has a lot of experience making a slow release version of d-Amphetamine for kids. Phenelzine is closely related to Amphetamine...and Amphetamine is also a very weak MAOi.
The prudent way to go ..would be to get your doc to authorize the Nardil to be compounded (if necessary) & to at least try the compound to see if it works for yourself. I would lay odds ..that it has to be better than the MONSTER that pigsda created in their cost-cutting ...profit driven ...snout in the trough ...shenanigans!
Also Joe.. there is no need for enteric capsules with the compound.
I received a reply from the CEO of the Oz company. Link Pharmaceuticals. Among other things he told me that Link's Nardil is made in the Czech Republic or Poland or somewhere like that...was a few years ago now since & my memory is fading like the rest of my brain cells :o)
What does anyone have to lose by trying this FORMULA once?
@ Double: As I'm off in Thailand...at the moment..I decide not to screw around with my medication, and am still on the old stuff and spaced out over the day. The dosage that is..but my brain could be in that class too :o) (Tue Feb 9 21:35 2010)
Sorry for the delay...I'm currently in the Golden Triangle region of Thailand...hired a big bike..and am cruising around the mountains here. Finally have some time to check this site out. The experiment that you ran was a great bit of lateral thinking Joe :o).
However, Double is correct... the stomach acid has a pH of around 1.... whereas vinegar is usually around 2.4 - 3. Doesn't sound much ..but 1 pH point is 10 times ...the next one is 100 times....next...1000 etc. So digestive acid is about 100 times more acidic than vinegar.
Also the enzymes minerals vitamins and other organic molecules play their role. Also the actual churning of the stomach muscles to mix it all up ....adds yet another confounding variable to your experiment. I do like your thinking though .... you're really trying to understand what is going on with the crapdil.
(Tue Feb 9 21:17 2010)
Sounds good ! (Mon Feb 8 21:07 2010)
It turns out the lot number on the Crapdil I just picked up was the same as yours, so it looks like I don't have to worry about a bad batch for now...
Anyway the compounding should be done tomorrow and then I'll finally try moving up to 60mg and stay with it. The doctor authorized 3 refills already so running out again won't be a problem for quite a while.
(Mon Feb 8 18:30 2010)
Hey man , Whats going on . You sick from the nardil or flu ? It's going around. Hang in there and let us know what happened.
Maybe someone will have an answer for you .
Take care (Mon Feb 8 17:15 2010)
I am so sick, i have no idea what to do>: Maybe
you do (Mon Feb 8 11:27 2010)
For one thing, most people's stomach acid is quite a bit more acidic than vinegar. Vinegar has a pH of about 3 while stomach acid I think is usually somewhere between 1 and 2. Also you're not taking into account the presence of all the different enzymes in the stomach aside from just the acidity.
Also, chewing the regular Nardil will NOT help at all.. if anything it may only make things a bit worse. It's not the crushing the Nardil in itself that makes it more effective, but the addition and binding of the two extra excipients Methocel and Avicel which allow the Nardil to be absorbed more slowly and pass the blood-brain barrier.
(Sun Feb 7 1:01 2010)
meant to quote:
< Of course, lets thanks Dr.Undies for his tenacity to be the frist to do this. >
(Sun Feb 7 0:50 2010)
>
Indeed. Thank you Dr Undies. :)
(Sun Feb 7 0:49 2010)
After wiping off the nasty orange color,
I placed one pill in a small jar of water.
And,another into a n equal amount of vinagar.
They both lasted 20 minutes without breaking down.It's been 1.5 hrs. now and they are both
reduced in size by about the same amount.
What does this mean? It doesn't desolve in the stomach as we thought.If it takes 20 mins. in the stomach intact,then another hr.
to get to a fourth in size.Where is it?
And why doesn't it work like the old stuff.It lose's size all along the tract.
Also,maybe it's taken too long to desolve.
The crushed nardil in the capsuls seems to work. Maybe we should be chewing them up,
so they desolve faster??not to a power,but in little chunks??it would break down under an hr. but then again do we want it to go longet than an hr??? Remember the crushed
works. (Sat Feb 6 23:31 2010)
Hi Guys, Good to know your still out there Mary, how is your brother doing ? Is he totally off Nardil, I know he was trying to quit, If I remember correctly.
Double It's been at least over a yr. since
I;ve heard of any bad batches.You'll know
when it's bad, It's like weening off it in
cold turkey fashion. It happened to me twice
that was yrs. ago. I guess all the complaints
paid off some what.I really happy that this is working for you.It could be the fix we
were all waiting for. Of course, lets thanks Dr.Undies for his tenacity to be the frist to do this. cheers for down under. (Sat Feb 6 23:08 2010)
I wondered whether the smell was related to the recent tylenol recall that I think were moldy ...extra strength and arthritis formulas and they were made outside the states, like most crap Big Pharma makes these days. (Fri Feb 5 22:19 2010)
EDIT: Besides redskin_dan's recent post, of course... I did see that.
(Fri Feb 5 21:55 2010)
Also, has anyone here ever received a bad batch before? If so what was your experience?
(Fri Feb 5 21:52 2010)
Thanks, Joe. If anyone else in the USA has a different lot # please let me know ASAP and how it's working for you!!
Yes, my social ability and energy have already improved a great deal and so has my general anxiety. There are too many specifics for me to list here right now but believe me it's working. Not quite as good as the old Nardil yet, however I'm still on 45mg until I pick up the new RX so that's to be expected. Even when I was on the old Nardil I still had to take either 60 or 75 mg as my maintenance dose, and from what I understand that's the case with most other people who take Nardil as well. So most likely this is just the tip of the iceberg! :)
(Fri Feb 5 21:50 2010)
I have lot #9205001 seems to be fine -
Have you noticed any greater social ability
and energy as with the original nardil?
Can you find out if they are using enteric
capsuls? let me know , thanks Double.
Hey I like that word you coined "Crapdil" (Fri Feb 5 21:21 2010)
Hey I'm set to go back to the pharmacy Monday and pick up a fresh new batch of Crapdil to take and be compounded. If you're in the USA please let me know the lot # of the batch you're currently taking and if it's working normally for you. Thanks!
(Fri Feb 5 18:16 2010)
I believe the smelly stuff of "crap" Nardil works best.
Also, that FEDEX thing happened to many of us. They tell you to send your Nardil back, then they never respond, or they say it's OK.
Not surprising with Pfizer !
HelenK (Fri Feb 5 14:59 2010)
we heard you the first time ;) j/k
(Thu Feb 4 16:28 2010)
This was my first time I was referred to their Quality Control Department. I didn't really think I would get a response from them. I was suprised they gave me Fed X documents to send it back. I am wondering if the smelly Nardil is the good stuff or the bad stuff.
redskin_dan (Thu Feb 4 15:42 2010)
This was my first time I was referred to their Quality Control Department. I didn't really think I would get a response from them. I was suprised they gave me Fed X documents to send it back. I am wondering if the smelly Nardil is the good stuff or the bad stuff.
redskin_dan (Thu Feb 4 15:42 2010)
This was my first time I was referred to their Quality Control Department. I didn't really think I would get a response from them. I was suprised they gave me Fed X documents to send it back. I am wondering if the smelly Nardil is the good stuff or the bad stuff.
redskin_dan (Thu Feb 4 15:42 2010)
Don't expect to hear back from Pfizer. They certainly won't admit failure.
I've been through this a few times myself.
They always say: We will check into it.
How many times have you been referred to the "Quality Control Group" ??
I'd like to call the Board of Directors (212-733-2323), but I doubt they care.
Also, Pfizer told me that the Manufacturing Plant was at
86, Rue de Paris
91400 Orsay, France.
They promised to send me a copy of the report but never did. So I called (and nagged them again!)
Now they say they can't release such information. I then asked for a synopsis.
No luck there either!
There is definitely a quality control problem, both with Pfizer and Nardil!
HelenK
(Thu Feb 4 14:52 2010)
